So, what is the best way of encouraging comments ?
For those using this site to try to understand where we may go wrong with our photgraphic endeavours, it can be a bit frustrating when there is little feedback from other users.
Whilst I understand that sometimes people may be reluctant to post criticisms, I really think we need to find a way of saying that its OK to do so.
What are other people's thoughts on this ?
For those using this site to try to understand where we may go wrong with our photgraphic endeavours, it can be a bit frustrating when there is little feedback from other users.
Whilst I understand that sometimes people may be reluctant to post criticisms, I really think we need to find a way of saying that its OK to do so.
What are other people's thoughts on this ?
16.05.05, 15:57
Post 2 of 23
Hi Rob - you have touched on a subject that is very important to me ... many times I have posted constructive criticism and very surprisingly it is often not the uploader who takes offence but other members - they then quickly post a knee-jerk balancing comment saying that they 'love' the particular part of an image I commented on - often these comments would be transparently posted in order to defend a 'fault' in the image ... ie. one incident was a very blown highlight in the background ... the response was that another member loved it as it made the object in the background look like an alien ??? I cannot help but feel that this comment was simply posted as they didn't like my comment - oh yes - this was in a nice portrait shot !!! So back to your point - yes we need to be very aware that when an image is posted on this site with the 'comment' feature underneath it is likely to receive critique ... unless they actually state that they do not want it ... This site would die if it weren't for the critique and it constantly amazes me how some uploaders and many members find constructive comment and opinion offensive. Comments should always be constructive and polite and it is always a good idea to state that this is an 'opinion' rather than fact ... I have never taken offence at comments underneath my images and hopefully will never do so. I suggest anyone who does not welcome comments should state this clearly below the image. Thanks for bringing this up ... regards, Paul.
But more still needs to be done to encourage commenting generally - good or bad. From the sites perspective, this is the mechanism by which its lives or dies.
I wonder how many users have lost interest in using FC on a regular basis simply because of this.
As for some of the points raised in your response. Knee jerk reactions are not a problem as far as I can see - dialogue is dialogue. I know I have posted comments defending a picture from a comment I thought to be 'picky', but thats just about balance. Knee jerk reactions should only be considered a problem where it is around 'personal' differences between two posters, rather than around a defence of a photo itself. Photography is too subjective for any one person to be 'right'. In the example you gave, it would take just one post to resolve it: - "We will have to agree to disagree". Simple ;-)
Anyhoo, I still just want people to comment on my flipping photo's and tell me where I'm going wrong!! Come along now, form an orderly queue.
I wonder how many users have lost interest in using FC on a regular basis simply because of this.
As for some of the points raised in your response. Knee jerk reactions are not a problem as far as I can see - dialogue is dialogue. I know I have posted comments defending a picture from a comment I thought to be 'picky', but thats just about balance. Knee jerk reactions should only be considered a problem where it is around 'personal' differences between two posters, rather than around a defence of a photo itself. Photography is too subjective for any one person to be 'right'. In the example you gave, it would take just one post to resolve it: - "We will have to agree to disagree". Simple ;-)
Anyhoo, I still just want people to comment on my flipping photo's and tell me where I'm going wrong!! Come along now, form an orderly queue.
16.05.05, 17:12
Post 4 of 23
Yes we will have to disagree because I have been discouraged from commenting because of some people's responses to my constructive comments - I dont mind someone adding or challenging a comment genuinely but it is the knee-jerk responses to defend someone just because they have been criticised that I dislike. Especially when I am convinced they 'up' their comment soley to contradict a criticism or defend the poor uploader who actually WANTED critique and would benefit from it in the first place ... the example I gave was a classic - what the hell did an alien have to do with a nice portrait and did the responder really think that the poster of the image actually had that intention ?? I doubt it - I sometimes think that if I said that a portrait was out of focus or the eyes had red-eye someone would come on and say "wow - I love the red-eye effect - it challenges the accepted norms of portraiture and dares to expand the borders of acceptability. And the blur seems to convey the softness of the character whilst creating an air of mystery and intrigue ... ". When, in reality, it was a poorly focussed image with bad use of flash - and the photographer needs advice not an ego massage ... anyway I have said my bit ...
P.S. I am not against responding to comments persay ... just the type mentioned above ..
P.S. I am not against responding to comments persay ... just the type mentioned above ..
I understand what you're saying. Maybe at that point you just need to shrug them shoulders and think "I made my point and I made it well, everything else is academic". As long as the poster of the photo accepts the advice, what other people do about it is their own affair.
But, the original point of this thread was to try to see what could be done to encourage people to comment more generally. Or even find out why they don't - which you have to a degree based on your own experience.
Suggestions on a postcard please.
But, the original point of this thread was to try to see what could be done to encourage people to comment more generally. Or even find out why they don't - which you have to a degree based on your own experience.
Suggestions on a postcard please.
I think many people just do not comment on pictures cause they dont know how to do so.
In general i find with the upcoming of digital photography there's loads of people taking a camera at hand without even knowing anything about the basics of photography.
From many of such people one can not expect much more critisim then the usual "nice picture, beautiful colours "etc. etc. ( the 1 in a 100 natural talent not included )
I as well sometimes find that people react in a very strange way when confronted with critisism, however i dont mind it so much and tell 'm anyhow how i feel.
If one does not want critics, then just don't upload!
I general i will only react to pictures from which i find that the maker shows he/she wants to get somewhere.
I see also loads of "crap" uploaded to which i simply do not waste my time.
In general i find with the upcoming of digital photography there's loads of people taking a camera at hand without even knowing anything about the basics of photography.
From many of such people one can not expect much more critisim then the usual "nice picture, beautiful colours "etc. etc. ( the 1 in a 100 natural talent not included )
I as well sometimes find that people react in a very strange way when confronted with critisism, however i dont mind it so much and tell 'm anyhow how i feel.
If one does not want critics, then just don't upload!
I general i will only react to pictures from which i find that the maker shows he/she wants to get somewhere.
I see also loads of "crap" uploaded to which i simply do not waste my time.
Whilst I agree that there is probably some very poor pictures on this site (and arguably some of mine fall into that category), I think its a little unfair to marginalize the 99/100 people who are perhaps here to either improve their skills or just dabble in the wide world of photography.
Possibly a system whereby you can identify your skill level would be useful. Then comments can be tailor made dependant on that users ability. Then the more heralded 1/100 could more adeptly pass on their knowledge and experience.
In my world, "nice picture, beautiful colours" is as much a valid critique as "good composition, nice contrast". Maybe thats just me though.
Possibly a system whereby you can identify your skill level would be useful. Then comments can be tailor made dependant on that users ability. Then the more heralded 1/100 could more adeptly pass on their knowledge and experience.
In my world, "nice picture, beautiful colours" is as much a valid critique as "good composition, nice contrast". Maybe thats just me though.
You really started an interesting thread here, as comments and constructive criticism is essential here. I'm sure that I myself allready could improve my skills as a result of the feedback I found here. If others could benefit from my comments, I don't know...
What Ruud meant that many members don't know how to critisize is right, in my opinion. I often see a picture which I think I should write something about, I often really need some time to do that. As I not allways have time, some of my comments are not much more than "standard".
Sometimes I also have problems to express myself in English, and there might be another reason for some people being afraid about commenting, as that for most of us is a foreign language.
Pauls comment about strange reactions to comments I can understand, as I sometimes feel that myself. OK, that's life...
In general I think it's important to encourage new members with our feedback, I still coan remember how good it was for me to get some positive comments when I started here some months ago.
I try to do the same now, though I didn't write many comments recently. But I must also agree with Ruud, that there are many pictures which are "not worth" to say something about. But surely in such cases one may not write insulting comments, as I have read sometimes too (the worst in .de: "Die hier vorliegende Pixelanhaeufung ist Scheisse.") We must not insult other photographers, even if we think there photos are bad!
Greetings, Martin
What Ruud meant that many members don't know how to critisize is right, in my opinion. I often see a picture which I think I should write something about, I often really need some time to do that. As I not allways have time, some of my comments are not much more than "standard".
Sometimes I also have problems to express myself in English, and there might be another reason for some people being afraid about commenting, as that for most of us is a foreign language.
Pauls comment about strange reactions to comments I can understand, as I sometimes feel that myself. OK, that's life...
In general I think it's important to encourage new members with our feedback, I still coan remember how good it was for me to get some positive comments when I started here some months ago.
I try to do the same now, though I didn't write many comments recently. But I must also agree with Ruud, that there are many pictures which are "not worth" to say something about. But surely in such cases one may not write insulting comments, as I have read sometimes too (the worst in .de: "Die hier vorliegende Pixelanhaeufung ist Scheisse.") We must not insult other photographers, even if we think there photos are bad!
Greetings, Martin
The "system" Rob would like to install is not really needed, when someone uploads a photograph i do not need any system to see what the experience level of the uploader is.
I can see it from the p'graph quite easily. In general i can also see whether the maker has put effort into it in order to make a p'graph or if he/she just wanted to make a "pic". Fact is that one should always stay polite as martin says, stamping someone into the ground is not neccesary, and if i notice anyone doing so i will definitely react to that.
I can see it from the p'graph quite easily. In general i can also see whether the maker has put effort into it in order to make a p'graph or if he/she just wanted to make a "pic". Fact is that one should always stay polite as martin says, stamping someone into the ground is not neccesary, and if i notice anyone doing so i will definitely react to that.
Sorry, Ruud, but you are missing the point I am was trying to make. I am in no doubt that you know what makes a good photo and what doesn't. But from the perspective of those who are maybe looking for advice from the more 'expert' among us, it would be useful to know what level of experience the person looking for tips has. I know that I may have different advice for someone who has spent 30 years taking bad photographs, as opposed to someone who has taken bad pictures for just 3 weeks. And of course, in both scenario's you would be polite - that goes without saying.
Rob, i very well understand what you mean but still the whole thing is quite simple. If someone just starting in photography has the "eye", one notices so within the first few p'graphs he/she makes, even though maybe technically they are not the best possible yet. In such case i will gladly spend time and effort to get such person going. On the other hand someone making bad pictures for "30" years who still doesnot understand that he/she is on the wrong train, thats ok with me, but i will not spend any time on that person.
Ok, I'm new here. (14 days) But I feel that some people are loading up photos that, for the rest of the world are skit! bad, unsharp, not-saying-anything pictures. The "good" part on the picture is some frend. and in that specific situation, "he is so funny". but whe don't get it, becouse whe don't know him.
ore photos that "would have ben good. in a good light, and if it was sharp"
Get me?
OK, I cant say I'm good (look for you self, and give real critic. mot onely good/bad.) But I feel that some people are waisting there uploads...
No, now its geting to long... Greetings/ Johannes O.
Post Edited (0:22h)
ore photos that "would have ben good. in a good light, and if it was sharp"
Get me?
OK, I cant say I'm good (look for you self, and give real critic. mot onely good/bad.) But I feel that some people are waisting there uploads...
No, now its geting to long... Greetings/ Johannes O.
Post Edited (0:22h)
I agree with Rob, those of us who would like to improve our standard of photography are given very little advice, something I was told I would get in abundance when I signed up.
About 6 weeks ago I posted a series of 5 portraits on which I stated that this was my first attempt at portrait photography and that I would like any constructive critism in order to help me improve. Over 100 people viewed each photo but only Paul and Charles Fowler (via email) replied with any advice on what was good or more importantly what was wrong with the photos. I am very grateful to them for their critiques, I'm a big boy now and can accept criticism quite happily when it is put in the right way. (Believe me if I thought someone was simply being rude I would let them know via a pm)
The thing I find far more annoying/frustrating is the thought that anyone would consider me unworthy of advice. That my friend is pure unbridled snobbery.
Johannes, your point that photos of someone's friend say nothing to a complete stranger is quite fair, and in that scenario there is no point in leaving a comment. However, your second point that a picture may have been better if it where sharper or lit in a different way is exactly the sort of comment that guys like Rob and myself are after.
About 6 weeks ago I posted a series of 5 portraits on which I stated that this was my first attempt at portrait photography and that I would like any constructive critism in order to help me improve. Over 100 people viewed each photo but only Paul and Charles Fowler (via email) replied with any advice on what was good or more importantly what was wrong with the photos. I am very grateful to them for their critiques, I'm a big boy now and can accept criticism quite happily when it is put in the right way. (Believe me if I thought someone was simply being rude I would let them know via a pm)
The thing I find far more annoying/frustrating is the thought that anyone would consider me unworthy of advice. That my friend is pure unbridled snobbery.
Johannes, your point that photos of someone's friend say nothing to a complete stranger is quite fair, and in that scenario there is no point in leaving a comment. However, your second point that a picture may have been better if it where sharper or lit in a different way is exactly the sort of comment that guys like Rob and myself are after.
I agree wholeheartedly, Stuart. Good point and well made.
Those that consider themselves proficient should as much as possible leave comments. Or else what could happen is that this site becomes just a gallery for the great and good, where the less professional amongst us come to worship !! lol
I still stick to one of my previous points though. I have no problem with people leaving the 'Good', 'Excellent', 'Nice picture' type of comments either. All feedback is good feedback, whether it can be misconstrued as being unthought out or otherwise.
Those that consider themselves proficient should as much as possible leave comments. Or else what could happen is that this site becomes just a gallery for the great and good, where the less professional amongst us come to worship !! lol
I still stick to one of my previous points though. I have no problem with people leaving the 'Good', 'Excellent', 'Nice picture' type of comments either. All feedback is good feedback, whether it can be misconstrued as being unthought out or otherwise.
Absolutely Rob, All feedback is good feedback. I certainly never meant to suggest that comments such as Nice Pic etc were unwelcome, indeed most of my comments are of that type as I don't regard myself as proficient enough to hand out technical advice.