22.05.14, 10:39
Post 1 of 30
Is it a problem being honest and giving fair critiques in a respectful way and when nessecary tips to improve.
Now I see sometimes photographs badly exposed of out of focus and most comments are praises. As far as I'm concerned the wrong way because a good critique and help can make a photographer better. The longer I photograph (about 45 years) the lesser I know about it so being member of a photo-site like FC is every day inspiring and helpful in getting better.
gr.Rob
Now I see sometimes photographs badly exposed of out of focus and most comments are praises. As far as I'm concerned the wrong way because a good critique and help can make a photographer better. The longer I photograph (about 45 years) the lesser I know about it so being member of a photo-site like FC is every day inspiring and helpful in getting better.
gr.Rob
24.05.14, 16:07
Post 2 of 30
agree with Rob
the next instant after i spell out a criticism with regard to picture quality, i feel the urge to apologize to the photographer concerned.. with this in mind my comments consist mostly of praise.. and there is little i can do about it.. let's face it: the bedrock of the FC is mutual praise.. once we all start criticizing and giving unsolicited advice to one another, we are done for as a community.. how can this attitude be changed, i don't know..
the next instant after i spell out a criticism with regard to picture quality, i feel the urge to apologize to the photographer concerned.. with this in mind my comments consist mostly of praise.. and there is little i can do about it.. let's face it: the bedrock of the FC is mutual praise.. once we all start criticizing and giving unsolicited advice to one another, we are done for as a community.. how can this attitude be changed, i don't know..
24.05.14, 17:09
Post 3 of 30
Maybe it's a process that should come alive. Everything I know now I picked up on photo sites like FC due getting fair critiques and help when needed. The only goal is not to abuse people with critique but only telling them how to get better. Now I see some real bad pictures with only praises and the photographer thinks he or she is an ace.
I rather have people telling me, and that in a respectful way, what could be improved and how. At the end we all be better photographers and I think that's just what we want.
I rather have people telling me, and that in a respectful way, what could be improved and how. At the end we all be better photographers and I think that's just what we want.
24.05.14, 17:39
Post 4 of 30
hey Rob
i appreciate your stance about honing photographer skills
but i think you are making a mistake here
the vast majority of FC members DO NOT want to become better photographers... instead they already think of themselves as skillful photographers and when you expose weak points in their pictures, it annoys them more than causes their learning curve to improve... what they really want is to showcase their pictures and be praised, period.
ironically, there can be times when i myself feel that way, i mean this is wrong of course, but at least i realize how inferior my pictures are compared to those taken by people whom i look up to.. so i think there is no quick or easy way of changing this attitude...
i appreciate your stance about honing photographer skills
but i think you are making a mistake here
the vast majority of FC members DO NOT want to become better photographers... instead they already think of themselves as skillful photographers and when you expose weak points in their pictures, it annoys them more than causes their learning curve to improve... what they really want is to showcase their pictures and be praised, period.
ironically, there can be times when i myself feel that way, i mean this is wrong of course, but at least i realize how inferior my pictures are compared to those taken by people whom i look up to.. so i think there is no quick or easy way of changing this attitude...
24.05.14, 18:43
Post 5 of 30
Hi Leonid, of course you're right about the majority who likes to be praised instead of anything else.
Maybe it's possible to show other members that you like to have fair and honest critiques and willing to learn from other members, maybe a small sign next to your upload, and then it's easy to see if a photographer likes or dislikes critiques.
Yes I know about the section "Critique - straight and tough" because I've been member around 2008 and always in that section but.......hardly seen critiques in that section.
When looking at myself I know it's dangerous to believe you're an ace, the longer I make photos the more I see that it always cab be improved.
If we were really as good as we now and then believe we could earn money with our hobby and then we wouldn't have time for FC
Would be nice if more people would express their feeling
Maybe it's possible to show other members that you like to have fair and honest critiques and willing to learn from other members, maybe a small sign next to your upload, and then it's easy to see if a photographer likes or dislikes critiques.
Yes I know about the section "Critique - straight and tough" because I've been member around 2008 and always in that section but.......hardly seen critiques in that section.
When looking at myself I know it's dangerous to believe you're an ace, the longer I make photos the more I see that it always cab be improved.
If we were really as good as we now and then believe we could earn money with our hobby and then we wouldn't have time for FC
Would be nice if more people would express their feeling
You can only help those that want help. Everyone has a reason why they joined, some want clicks, comments, to learn to improve or hear how good they are. It is different for everyone.
I think that people that come here to learn can do so by not settling for mediocrity. Take photographs that challenge yourself and ask people whose opinion you respect for their brutal and honest critique.
I think that people that come here to learn can do so by not settling for mediocrity. Take photographs that challenge yourself and ask people whose opinion you respect for their brutal and honest critique.
28.05.14, 08:32
Post 7 of 30
Getting honest critiques and help when needed improved my skills tremendously in the last years I spend time on sites worldwide. I rather have a good critique then a compliment because I'm still learning from other photographers. And of course there are other photographers who don't feel that need and I'll respect that of course. As said before, it would be nice if you could see if a member is willing to get honest and fair critiques.
Gr. Rob
Gr. Rob
I'm with you Rob, you know that.....but as mentioned above, most people here just want to be praised, no matter how good or bad their photo is. It has always been this way and I'm afraid it will always stay like this !!!
Maybe introducing a 'sign' next to a photo wanting honest comments would be a start, don't know...
greetz,
Maybe introducing a 'sign' next to a photo wanting honest comments would be a start, don't know...
greetz,
I just found the above dialogue, agree with all of you ... but I too find it difficult to point out to a photographer what I feel could be done better .... do I know under what circumstance the photo was taken, do I know if (i.e. not straightening out buildings) was done intentionally, am I really expert enough to give advice ????? The other photographer might not think so, especially if his taste in subjects to photograph differs greatly from mine.
I at times have sent a fotomail with a suggestion (so a negative comment is not read by everybody else). I think it might be more acceptable than getting "criticised in public".
Isn't the other problem also that many a picture can never be taken again due to one time situations like travel, a street scene, wheather etc. etc. - and therefore the mistake cannot be corrected and may not be remembered the next time around (so why bother saying something negative).
My greatest beef about comments is that many people only write about the motiv - but then, there are times I tend to do the same thing (to avoid saying something about the quality or lack of quality of the image). Oh shame !!!!!
And so we go round and round, and I think things won't change, Rob .... I remind myself that people want to share their world and experiences - as I do :-))))
wish everyone a fine weekend,
cheers, Adele
I at times have sent a fotomail with a suggestion (so a negative comment is not read by everybody else). I think it might be more acceptable than getting "criticised in public".
Isn't the other problem also that many a picture can never be taken again due to one time situations like travel, a street scene, wheather etc. etc. - and therefore the mistake cannot be corrected and may not be remembered the next time around (so why bother saying something negative).
My greatest beef about comments is that many people only write about the motiv - but then, there are times I tend to do the same thing (to avoid saying something about the quality or lack of quality of the image). Oh shame !!!!!
And so we go round and round, and I think things won't change, Rob .... I remind myself that people want to share their world and experiences - as I do :-))))
wish everyone a fine weekend,
cheers, Adele
This is a problem which has been discussed many times before. At one time we created a section "Hard Critique" where people could place their pictures if they wanted honest comments. And guess what happened? Every one just went on saying how nice, and how good etc etc. And if ( it happend to me several times ) you would give "hard" critique, you would still get hatemails !!!
The problem nowadays is the fact that the influx of "photographers" is soo high, due to the ease by which digital photograpy has made it all, that most people simply miss the education which i forinstance got when i started some 40 odd years ago. I went to a club, where we gathered once a fortnight and putted out pictures on the board, in that way i learned to look at and discuss pictures. This is something i do not see only here with amateur photographers, i see this also in the world of professional photography, where i too often meet "photographers" who are not even familiar with the most common technical terms such as aperture and shutter time !!!
I have stopped commenting here and on other sites because i just got tired of it all. If people nowadays want to learn and get comments they can come to my workshops and lectures, if they take that trouble then i at least know that i'm talking to people who want to listen ! Last edited by Ruud van der Lubben on 08.06.14, 11:21, edited 3 times in total.
The problem nowadays is the fact that the influx of "photographers" is soo high, due to the ease by which digital photograpy has made it all, that most people simply miss the education which i forinstance got when i started some 40 odd years ago. I went to a club, where we gathered once a fortnight and putted out pictures on the board, in that way i learned to look at and discuss pictures. This is something i do not see only here with amateur photographers, i see this also in the world of professional photography, where i too often meet "photographers" who are not even familiar with the most common technical terms such as aperture and shutter time !!!
I have stopped commenting here and on other sites because i just got tired of it all. If people nowadays want to learn and get comments they can come to my workshops and lectures, if they take that trouble then i at least know that i'm talking to people who want to listen ! Last edited by Ruud van der Lubben on 08.06.14, 11:21, edited 3 times in total.
Here's an actual example from today !!
The maker of this picture :
had another version online, a little less grey than this one, to which i gave him a comment, saying i did like the scene, but in my opinion it was a bit too gray.
Result?
He took it offline and uploaded this version which is even more grey !!!
WHY DO I BOTHER TO COMMENT ????
The maker of this picture :
had another version online, a little less grey than this one, to which i gave him a comment, saying i did like the scene, but in my opinion it was a bit too gray.
Result?
He took it offline and uploaded this version which is even more grey !!!
WHY DO I BOTHER TO COMMENT ????
09.06.14, 06:54
Post 12 of 30
Hi Adele and Ruud, the generale attitude of getting as much praises as possible has given some snapshot artist the impression that they are real good. But using their camera as it should is a bridge to far. I see "photographers" with the most advanced cameras working on full-auto and because they have bought this expensive camera the results should be good. And if we not tell them how the results can be improved the general quality of uploads is slipping away. About 6 or 7 years ago I was also on FC and in these days the uploads had a better quality. So it is also in our own interest to stop that. On this moment I've got some reluctant feedback of people telling me that my critiques shocked them briefly, because 20 other comments told them how good it was, but after looking again at their own upload they saw I got a valid point. And they asked me to continue doing so.
Gr. Rob
Gr. Rob
me too, I am for honest but constructive critics and comments..
Through the years I have found out on different sites that it does not work mostly...Even if you give one constructive suggestion and have it followed up by lots of compliments...it is not accepted as an honest comment, then the only thing the photographer feels ...is the point of critic...
Here in FC I try to be honest and so far...I had no hate mails, which I did receive some years ago when I was a FC member as well..let us see what happens ... and enjoy our hobby in the first place...
lg, Mirjam
Through the years I have found out on different sites that it does not work mostly...Even if you give one constructive suggestion and have it followed up by lots of compliments...it is not accepted as an honest comment, then the only thing the photographer feels ...is the point of critic...
Here in FC I try to be honest and so far...I had no hate mails, which I did receive some years ago when I was a FC member as well..let us see what happens ... and enjoy our hobby in the first place...
lg, Mirjam
20.06.14, 06:52
Post 14 of 30
Hi Mirjam, thanks for your contribution on the discussion. Maybe it's fighting against windmills but if we don't FC is gonna change in a site where we only see holiday snapshots as I call them. You can see uplods of which you think how it's possible you can make it, real rubbish. And those uploads getting 20-50 praises a day and give the uploader, won't call it a photographer, the idea it's top. I keep on nagging until people tell me they don't appreciate it but slowly more people like the critiques and arewilling to learn something
Gr. Rob
Gr. Rob
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/05 ... 6_zsLGqI0h
The issue of giving honest critique is not just a FC issue it is present on all sites. Some people want to improve and others just want to hear how good they are.
The Fan encourages us, gives us the strength to push on when we’re not sure the struggle is worth the effort. The Fan reminds us that the worst of our work doesn’t define us. The Fan is the cheerleader – often found in friends and family – that gives us hope. But while the Fan’s voice is always positive it’s not always helpful and can in fact be ruinous if we listen to it alone. The Fan, for all her enthusiasm, isn’t usually qualified to do much more than cheer-lead. It may feel good to be told your work is the best work ever, but if that Fan doesn’t know so much as one other photographer or the history of the art, that voice isn’t qualified. And in that case the voice of the fan is misleading. A voice enthusiastically cheering you on, while you merrily run in the wrong direction isn’t a helpful voice, no matter how well-meaning.
The Critic helps us see our blind spots and asks a lot of questions. The critic is honest and – assuming you’ve chosen your critics well – wants only to make your work better through a more objective view of it. The Critic pushes us, sometimes harder than we want to be pushed. The Critic, when he knows his stuff and – importantly – knows us – can help us ask questions of ourselves, make us aware when we’re repeating our own work, and call us forward. The Critic, properly chosen is not a negative voice, though there are many of those. I’m not referring to those voices. Critical voices can be good, criticizing ones just squelch our creative souls. The Critical voice can be the most helpful one as we push our art past our comfortable places and into the unknown places. That push can give us courage to do better. - David duChemin
The problem lies in this pervasive need to seek the approval of as many people as possible in order to justify whether you are a photographer, and worse, whether you are even a good photographer. For many of us, the quality of an image has been relegated to the response rate and engagement percentage of a post you made on your social media outlet of choice. Good, honest, quality feedback has been supplanted by mindless Likes and +1s. Our entire scale of artistic growth has been commoditized whereas the clear voices of a small group of mentors and trusted friends have been replaced by a cacophony of fleeting words and phrases left as comments. - by Brian Matiash
The issue of giving honest critique is not just a FC issue it is present on all sites. Some people want to improve and others just want to hear how good they are.
The Fan encourages us, gives us the strength to push on when we’re not sure the struggle is worth the effort. The Fan reminds us that the worst of our work doesn’t define us. The Fan is the cheerleader – often found in friends and family – that gives us hope. But while the Fan’s voice is always positive it’s not always helpful and can in fact be ruinous if we listen to it alone. The Fan, for all her enthusiasm, isn’t usually qualified to do much more than cheer-lead. It may feel good to be told your work is the best work ever, but if that Fan doesn’t know so much as one other photographer or the history of the art, that voice isn’t qualified. And in that case the voice of the fan is misleading. A voice enthusiastically cheering you on, while you merrily run in the wrong direction isn’t a helpful voice, no matter how well-meaning.
The Critic helps us see our blind spots and asks a lot of questions. The critic is honest and – assuming you’ve chosen your critics well – wants only to make your work better through a more objective view of it. The Critic pushes us, sometimes harder than we want to be pushed. The Critic, when he knows his stuff and – importantly – knows us – can help us ask questions of ourselves, make us aware when we’re repeating our own work, and call us forward. The Critic, properly chosen is not a negative voice, though there are many of those. I’m not referring to those voices. Critical voices can be good, criticizing ones just squelch our creative souls. The Critical voice can be the most helpful one as we push our art past our comfortable places and into the unknown places. That push can give us courage to do better. - David duChemin
The problem lies in this pervasive need to seek the approval of as many people as possible in order to justify whether you are a photographer, and worse, whether you are even a good photographer. For many of us, the quality of an image has been relegated to the response rate and engagement percentage of a post you made on your social media outlet of choice. Good, honest, quality feedback has been supplanted by mindless Likes and +1s. Our entire scale of artistic growth has been commoditized whereas the clear voices of a small group of mentors and trusted friends have been replaced by a cacophony of fleeting words and phrases left as comments. - by Brian Matiash